FK Readers CLUB

[jordan]

@ Perumthachan

but you dont have any experience with god still you believe there is some higher force which binds everything together , But when it come to enlightment why you deny them coz its not under your comprehension .. is it a contradiction or ??

[jordan]

Also

i will add some more points regarding understanding and perception

If you heard about ludwig wittengstein , he has tremendous way of dealing with philosophy . he used to say that there is not true philosophical problems only langauge problems ie if i say this is mine hand you dont ask how come because you know it because you feel it in your body just the same way you thin k i feel about them

But on the otherhand if skeptic who keeps asking about it how come this is your hand you cannot explain to him because either he did'nt understand hand or he is forcing you to give him more validity than what you feel about your hand

[Perumthachan]

@ Perumthachan

but you dont have any experience with god still you believe there is some higher force which binds everything together , But when it come to enlightment why you deny them coz its not under your comprehension .. is it a contradiction or ??

Not believing in something does not mean I should believe in the stark opposite. Does it? If you feel you are the seeker able to attain enlightenment, do pass me a message when you do acquire it, are as you said, the next time you fall cold. I would like to ask you about the futility of the meaningless journey you undertook.

I am asking you the same thing I asked before: What is the whole point of enlightenment? How will it help you? What makes you think you have experiences enough, knowledge enough, able to control your id and ego, which will eventually make you enlightened? Detachment is a factor and do you honestly think is is possible for you? If leading a meaningful life is the core essence of spirituality, is it really necessary to be spiritual? Just take a look around and understand without any prejudices. Can an enlightened person be free from existential investigations? Buddha claimed that enlightenment is 'Supreme wisdom and grace and serenity, total self-transcendence, liberation from mundane reality and morality'. Can you tell me what all that means, cause it is easier for me to believe that lead can be changed to gold than all those. If not understanding something is a criteria for believing that, that particular thing is 'the thing' and should be attained, isn't enlightenment the greatest hypnotic act pulled by spiritual leaders?

And please don't answer by pulling out quotations and statements of all philosophers starting from the Greek civilisation. If you can say from your experience, do so.

Also

i will add some more points regarding understanding and perception

If you heard about ludwig wittengstein , he has tremendous way of dealing with philosophy . he used to say that there is not true philosophical problems only langauge problems ie if i say this is mine hand you dont ask how come because you know it because you feel it in your body just the same way you thin k i feel about them

But on the otherhand if skeptic who keeps asking about it how come this is your hand you cannot explain to him because either he did'nt understand hand or he is forcing you to give him more validity than what you feel about your hand

Isn't it same as the half-full glass concept? Or the duck-rabbit one where, frankly, I do not see a duck.
But what were you getting it there? Were you trying to say something?

[jordan]

@ permuthachan

my god. what you mean by my experience. Do u believe everything by your experience . can you give a defnite experience of an higher power which you belive as a powerful force ..

We will talk about enlightment and other stuff later .. ??

[jordan]

Isn't it same as the half-full glass concept? Or the duck-rabbit one where, frankly, I do not see a duck.
But what were you getting it there? Were you trying to say something?

see . what i meant is enlightment is an experiecne and those who claim to have possesed it , can be understood by those who have it. for others, can take it as hypothesis or even illusion .

[Perumthachan]

@ permuthachan

my god. what you mean by my experience. Do u believe everything by your experience . can you give a defnite experience of an higher power which you belive as a powerful force ..

We will talk about enlightment and other stuff later .. ??

rather than asking me questions, it would be better you answer some cause it seems like you are the one absorbed by enlightenment.

[Perumthachan]

see . what i meant is enlightment is an experiecne and those who claim to have possesed it , can be understood by those who have it. for others, can take it as hypothesis or even illusion .

Enlightenment requires a purity of thought and behavior, which I believe is merely impossible for mere mortals. Like I said, hypothesis also has valid explanations. And I do not believe in illusions because those are possible even during cocktail drug intakes or orgasms during a sex orgy.

[jordan]

@ Perumthachan

So what u say is enlightment is something which cannot be acquired by mere humans because our limitation ... ??

[Perumthachan]

@ Perumthachan

So what u say is enlightment is something which cannot be acquired by mere humans because our limitation ... ??

Not because of limitations because I strongly feel that, any person is capable of overcoming his limitations. For me, enlightenment is a state where we transcend ourselves; where we are able to discard all strings that attach us emotionally and physically to this world. Because it is always loss of something that makes us realise its value. But if we reach a stage where even the loss does not mean anything to us then that means we have overcome that object. The same applies with the loss of our dear ones also. From that transcending stage, we will be able to see all things in a different possible way which leads us to in-depth knowledge and able to find satisfying answers to complex events. But in this materialistic world filled with temptations, is detachment possible? If a person is a part of our present society, he will be held by temptations, if not for him then atleast for people who matter to him. If a person throws everything and lives in forests or ashrams, isn't that escapism? Isn't enlightenment meant to be, of this world rather than, off this world? If a person has to detach-&-attach while staying in this world, then isn't he pretending his emotions to atleast some people? Isn't overcoming all sorts of pretensions the core concept of enlightenment? So, what should a person do to become enlightened. He should be of this world but not of this world; he should provide for his ones but he should detach himself from those ones. Is it possible? Are we strong enough to overcome our temptations? After all, isn't there some person, some thing, some feeling, some dream that will always hold dear for us and hold us grounded?

It is not limitations that holds a person from enlightenment, it is their temptations. Personally I do not think I can overcome my temptations. That is me. If someone is able to do it, attain enlightenment and understand things from a higher point of view, I won't be envious of them because, I know I won't be because, I prefer my temptations.

[jordan]

@ Perumthachan

yes. just like you pointed,there are limitation for human beings which prevents them , but there is an enormous possibility of human which no one is aware of himself . i heard that an human uses only his 3-5 % mind in his lifetime

Also Escapism aano ennu chodichal no its not escapism. but those who tries to attain any enlightment through escapism , it rarely happend that they succeed ..